tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post3005501088214018661..comments2024-02-05T05:15:04.759-08:00Comments on Wandering Scientist: Dear Cloud: Handling Salary NegotiationsCloudhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09317847285050447789noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-56041447954506163102013-05-21T12:18:37.297-07:002013-05-21T12:18:37.297-07:00I was also, technically, unsuccessful in my salary...I was also, technically, unsuccessful in my salary negotiation. I did however negotiate being hired as a Scientist for a Post-doc position. I was contacted by the company's HR after a contact passed on my CV. I hadn't seen the job listing (I probably wouldn't have applied for an industrial post-doc having completed an academic one).<br /><br />During the interview, I just said, "I am not interested in doing a second post-doc and won't accept if offered that position. If you can find another candidate with 10 years of research experience in this area, you can hire him/her."<br /><br />So, they offered me a Scientist position (which is significantly higher salary than post-doc) but wouldn't budge on the salary. I asked, I told them my target. The HR guy tried a bunch of BS guilt-trip tactics on me, but I persisted.<br /><br />It didn't hurt anything that I negotiated with the HR or played hardball. I don't work for the HR guy.<br /><br />When negotiating, just imagine you are giving advice to someone in that position, and follow that advice- even if you have to adopt a much more confident persona.<br /><br />PS- All the women scientists I've spoken to had similar experiences with other HR reps (all men). Trying to make them feel bad about negotiating. Stuff like, "If money is your main motivator, perhaps this isn't the company for you." And other BS. Ignore it. It's their job to get you for the lowest price. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-55400923147757469962013-05-18T00:53:12.709-07:002013-05-18T00:53:12.709-07:00Ha, my captcha was ycleanin
Ha, my captcha was ycleanin<br /><br />zenmoonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-72780941026861824622013-05-18T00:42:25.272-07:002013-05-18T00:42:25.272-07:00I had this same experience when I worked for a con...I had this same experience when I worked for a consulting engineering firm between 2004-2007. We had some awful, awful pay negotiations in the context of a highly competitive for talent job market. Y'know, like hearing from a HR email that was 'accidentally' circulated that my pay was only slightly more than a grads, my boss being paid only slightly more than me despite *much* more responsibility and a really combative work environment. My pay did double in three years (my boss, who was driving his own hard bargain on his pay raises said you've gotta make hay while the sunshines) but I ended up hating the work environment and left. <br /><br />I eventually took a (temporary) $20k pay cut to switch technical fields. My job in Australia was then in a very unionised environment, so the broader pay-scales pay increases were negotiated by my union with merit based movement up the pay scales. This means you effectively get two pay rises a year until you max out the pay-scale for a particular level (one a merit based advance, the other a % increase of the same level). I'm just at that point now so will need to look for new job at a higher 'level' to keep moving ahead. Alternatively, if you sit at the top of the pay scale, you can get merit based 'bonuses'. In hindsight, I think I did pretty well out of the switch and pay cut because my union negotiated three years worth of raises at the height of the boom while a lot of the people I worked with ended up on 4 day weeks (or made redundant) in the GFC and mining downturn.<br /><br />In New Zealand, I took another pay cut for a job here - but that's because there is a big wage difference between NZ and Australia. I did try negotiating and ended up with a bit more money offered after completing a trial period. But the pay difference really re-inforced to me why so many New Zealanders move to Australia! Zenmoohttp://zenmastermoo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-62745109508048149612013-05-17T13:11:57.234-07:002013-05-17T13:11:57.234-07:00I think in general it's good to negotiate your...I think in general it's good to negotiate your salary. Unless you've done extensive salary research, the company is probably NOT offering its highest salary and has wiggle. In my current job, I negotiated my salary so I got a higher start than the original listed salary. I know many of my colleagues did not do that, and it makes a difference in the long run!<br /><br />I actually did my negotiation via email and was very professional/factual about it, so that probably helped me avoid the gender minefield. In person, this may be harder. In either case, stick to facts and What you bring to the table. You can mention your previous salary if it were higher BUT that should not be the main point as you're trying to leave your previous employer anyway. I once helped a friend in her email negotiations. The first 2 paragraphs were about how she made more at her old job and the last paragraph talked about her extensive experience (i.e. what she brings to the company) that would justify a higher starting salary. I told her to flip it, and she got the higher starting salary.<br /><br />And yes, if you can't get a higher salary, you can always negotiate for tuition, education, more vacation time, etc...<br /><br />As you can tell, I really believe in negotiating!<br />oilandgarlichttp://oilandgarlic.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-69757289409058016282013-05-17T09:32:59.842-07:002013-05-17T09:32:59.842-07:00First off, I agree that "first post doc"...First off, I agree that "first post doc" is not necessarily the right, or even a possible, time to negotiate, and also that one's pay at that point is likely not a good predictor of subsequent pay. So I wouldn't worry too much about that stuff.<br /><br />That said, I work at an R01 academic institution and don't necessarily agree with NicoleandMaggie above, either. We officially have fixed post-doc "rate," but it is really just a floor -- contingent, of course, on a blend of competition and resources. So no, not every post-doc can or will get more, but one who is in demand (has other offers and/or specialized skills or abilities) likely will, either because the PI will move funds around in the grant budget or because the PI has access to other funds that can be used to augment the funds available through the grant (also, not all academic post-doc positions are grant funded). <br /><br />And funds (in academe, what I know about) can also come in once a post-doc is in place as an honorarium or supplemental payment (the post-doc does extra work for a different unit on campus), through consulting (the PI takes on consulting work for units outside campus and/or passes such opportunities along to the post-doc), plus, may be made available (even after the fact, that is, after the post-doc is in place) to fund travel or training.<br /><br />In terms of thinking about negotiating NOW, asking for funds to cover costs to attend a professional meeting or pursue a short ad-hoc training would be considered entirely normal in my world (and many such training opportunities pop up in summertime, as faculty take on extramural work and students have the opportunity to travel away from their home institutions). That's not to say such requests would routinely be met with a "yes," and even where they are it might be partial support with the post-doc expected to come up with the rest, but even if they're not, they demonstrate an interest in learning/advancing that is generally well received (and could lead to better recommendations and so forth down the road). That said, I have no clue how such things would be perceived in industry, so probably best to get advice from one or more people in that world before deploying such a request.Alexicographernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-49768879022521994522013-05-17T07:58:03.754-07:002013-05-17T07:58:03.754-07:00I went to a seminar held at my university for fema...I went to a seminar held at my university for female postdocs called WAGE which was led by Evelyn F. Murphy, author of Getting Even: Why Women Don't Get Paid Like Men and What To Do About It. The seminar focused on salary negotiations and the unique challenges women face. Their website is pretty helpful: http://www.wageproject.org/files/wage.php<br />and there's also a book (but I haven't read it yet).Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03466899702946193669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-5063081428948341732013-05-17T07:53:02.391-07:002013-05-17T07:53:02.391-07:00Yes, this is the attitude I go in with (getting to...Yes, this is the attitude I go in with (getting to a number I'm happy with). To me the money isn't important, but salary is a mark of my value to my company. Thinking of it this way (in rational terms instead of emotional ones) has helped me become a better negotiator for salary because I can always present reasons why I am valuable to the company, and my pay should reflect what I bring to the company. I earn higher than average for my position, men and women included.Autumnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14150617283056545848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-5176158320040561682013-05-17T07:26:28.828-07:002013-05-17T07:26:28.828-07:00You don't always have to negotiate. I had this...You don't always have to negotiate. I had this conversation with my husband recently -- who has to negotiate project prices all the time. I had a reserve price in my head for what I wanted to be paid for a certain project, and the people I was negotiating with came out of the gate with a number that was about 15% higher than that. I didn't ask for more, and then asked my husband later if he thought I should have. His take? Life is not a Moroccan bazaar. The point of haggling is to get a number you're happy with, not to haggle. And it's true -- if they'd come out with a number 15% lower, obviously I would have asked for more. Laura Vanderkamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06385504652419979583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29235839.post-84011551202682744452013-05-17T07:09:08.722-07:002013-05-17T07:09:08.722-07:00I don't know about industry post-docs, but man...I don't know about industry post-docs, but many academic post-docs have non-negotiable salaries... they're line items in grants. To get them topped up you would have to do something in addition, like teach. In any case, a post-doc salary shouldn't affect your regular salary nor should an internship salary affect your regular salary. These are special training positions.<br /><br />So focus your salary negotiation thoughts for the next job.<br /><br />On average, starting salaries for new grads are about the same by gender these days (controlling for industry, occupation etc.), at least in tech fields. The money slippage occurs in each part of the pipeline up. So it isn't just your first salary that you have to negotiate, it's all of your raises as well. And there are a lot of books to help with that. Common advice is to make sure you ask about reviews, that you ask about raises, that you keep up with industry trends, and that you keep your resume polished. And you should bring it up in terms of the value that you bring to the company.<br /><br />My little sister just found out via glass-door that she's being seriously underpaid for her position in her field in her city at her (large) company (and this is common after the first few years of automatic large raises at the big company). The easiest way for her to get her salary bid up would be to get an outside offer from a competitor. In fact, her roommate's friend did exactly that and their company offered to literally DOUBLE her salary. But by that point the roommate's friend felt like she wasn't valued and left. Instead, my sister has brought her concerns to the hiring manager and that's trickling up, but I suspect they may lose her eventually... if they don't pay her a huge premium she's going to eventually leave to do something more fulfilling. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com